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Troubleshooting Xantrex Echo Charge wiring issue
#1

It looks like I have some electrical problems with my coach 701. Currently, I am trying to investigate and resolve these issues:

1) The Xantrex Echo Charge does not appear to charge or maintain chassis batteries with shore power connected (the only LED blinks green).

2) The chassis batteries discharge around the 3 - 9 amp range when the shut-off switch is turned on (this is without touching the start switch or cranking the engine).

3)  The current draw does not appear to be stable flow but fluctuates on my Fluke 336 amp meter (large amp draw when chassis batteries are switched on, initially draws around 8-9amp, then gradually reduces to 3-5 amp. But the draw is consistent as long as the chassis battery switch is on, whether shore power is present or not. 

I am pretty much convinced this is not the Echo Charge device issue or hardware failure but a wiring issue, pre-existing since Marc Newman owned it.

These problems described here may have existed long since the previous owner of 701, Marc Newman, had this coach (guru forum user name: Yachts).

It's great that Marc left many threads in this forum. That allows me to get some history of my coach 701.

You may wonder how I determined the problem pre-existed a long time ago. 
Here  is the clue: 
http://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?ti...1#pid34261
http://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?ti...9#pid23099

My observations:

This coach had originally had a "Statpower ProSine 3000 Watt Inverter/Charger"; previous owner Mac Newman (@Yachts) replaced it with a "Xantrex Freedom SW 3012", probably sometime 2017.

How do I know?  
https://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?tid=3537
https://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?tid=3583
https://newellgurus.com/showthread.php?tid=3892

The picture taken just now confirmed this is the current Inverter/Charger. Model# FSW3012 FGA# 815-3012 DOM 16/MAY/2016.
   
   
   

Marc's post seems to show he replaced the generator at least once, and a quick conversation with Mark Newman: Newell had replaced the transfer switch on this 701 coach total of 8 times! Does this hint something else might be a problem (thus causing it to fail), or perhaps some wiring errors causing it, as I describe at below?
 
Stat with all circuit breakers at the off position. This is the only circuit breaker panel for AC I have found on this coach. 
Please comment and let me know the location if there is another AC 120/240v breaker panel. 
   

I have two (2) switches in the house battery bay, one marked "INVERTER", and another marked " AUXILLARY BATTERY".
The tops 3, and bottom 3 are grouped in parallel. 

Because measuring top and bottom battery groups always yield the same reading, I believe all 6 house batteries are connected in parallel.
Start testing, and measuring the house batteries, it reads at 13.0V
   
The chassis battery reads at 12.96V, with a shut-off switch at the OFF position.
   

In the wiring closet right under the hydraulic storage tank, where the Xantrex Echo Charge is located, there is a big terminal where two red, thick and several small thin wires connect together (marked as Q). The voltage reading here is 0 (shows 10mv to be exact, so negligible).
   

Now, I turn on shore power (external electrical panel 50amp circuit breaker). And turn on the battery switch for the inverter. Now the house battery voltage rises from 13.0v to 14.15v, meaning the Xantrex Freedom SW 3012 is now charging the house batteries.
   
Now, I turn on the chassis battery switch (engine bay), the clamp meter reads about 4.5 amp, and the voltage reading drops to 12.89 (from 12.96).
   

Now I go to the wiring closet under the hydraulic tank, the reading at the terminal Q changes from 0v to 12.17V
   

What puzzles me is this 12.17v reading. 
Looking at the Xantrex box, there is a LED blinking green. The manual says:

"When the input voltage is lower than 13.0/26.0 volts, the Digital echo~charge automatically switches OFF, and the indicator light blinks green."
.pdf Xantrex Digital echo-charge, 12-24 Volt 15 Amp.pdf Size: 629.34 KB  Downloads: 0


But my house battery is charging, and the voltage reads at 14.15v with shore power. This does not make sense.

So I started to check the wiring. It appears there the existing wiring is erroneous. 
   
   
   

There are three (3) wires coming out from the Echo Charge:
Black = to ground, Marked G
Red =  to Start Battery marked S0,  (i.e., Chassis Battery,  stained with some white to illustrate the path) 
Striped Red = to House Battery, marked H0
Both the S0 wire and H0 wire goes through a 20 amp fuse (both fuses are tested good), then become S1 and H1, respectively. 

S1 connects to Q, and H1 connects to MR (Merge Relay?). 
A thick red wire (marked as Q) connects the terminal MR. 
This means from the echo charge, the S0 and H0 are actually connected together! 

This looks like a wiring error to me. What do other gurus think?  Please share your thoughts.

Now here are my questions and request for help from fellow gurus:

1) Could you share a couple of photos of the wiring closet where your Xentrex Echo Charge is located? 

2) There is a switch (in the same closet as the Echo Charge is located) marked "Foreign". What does this switch control?
   
3)  In this same electrical wiring closet. I have 4 loose wire ends. Brown and Yellow wires are twisted together. 
     One is purple, and 4th one is a mixed color of red and yellow. 
     Do you have the same wire, and where these suppose to connect to? 
   

4) There are two battery disconnects in the house battery bay. One is marked "Auxillary Battery" what does this switch controls?

     It looks like when this switch is turned on, the Xentrex 3012 no longer charges the house battery, it actually starts to draw power from the battery.
     

5) There are two (2) thin/small wires connected to the chassis battery in the engine bay. Where do these two small wires connect to? 
   

Joe Zhao @ Greenville TX 75402
2004 Newell Coach 701, 45-8, 4 Slides, Front Entry
Detroit Diesel 60 w/DDEC, Allison 6-Speed AT, ZF Suspension w/Steerable Tag, ZF Auto Traction Control
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#2

Let’s start with the issue in the title. The echo charger is not keeping the chassis batteries charged.

The echo charger is usually located on the driver side, in the bay with the inverter. It will be hidden with a small carpeted box. Look up high on the wall. If not there, look in compartment just to the right of the engine in the rear hatch.

First order of business is to determine if the fuse to the echo is blown or the fuse from the echo to the battery is blown.

Second, what do the led indicators on the echo show?

Third, is the echo getting 12V power?

Let’s start there.

The rest of your post is about the house system, and I am not sure if you are saying you have a problem there, or I missed the reason for all the additional info.

Richard and Rhonda Entrekin
99 Newell, 512
Maverick Hybrid Toad
Inverness, FL (when we're home Cool )
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#3

Here's a link to the [/url][url=https://xantrex.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/445-0204-01-01_Rev-BDigital-Echo-Charger.pdf]owners guide.

Found with a Google search - "xantrex echo charge type:pdf". The 'type:pdf' tells Google that you only want results that are pdf files.

Jon & Chris Everton
1986 40' Dog House #86
450 hp ISM 5 spd ZF Ecomat 2
2004 Range Rover L322 Toad
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#4

(10-11-2022, 05:17 PM)MrE Wrote:  Here's a link to the [/url][url=https://xantrex.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/445-0204-01-01_Rev-BDigital-Echo-Charger.pdf]owners guide.

Found with a Google search - "xantrex echo charge type:pdf". The 'type:pdf' tells Google that you only want results that are pdf files.

Thanks for your reply. I have this manual and have included it in the post already. It helped me to identify the wiring error. 
I'd like to get some confirmation from fellow gurus about the existing wiring error and figure out how to make a correction.
 A couple of photos from your coach would greatly help if your coach is similar to mine.

Joe Zhao @ Greenville TX 75402
2004 Newell Coach 701, 45-8, 4 Slides, Front Entry
Detroit Diesel 60 w/DDEC, Allison 6-Speed AT, ZF Suspension w/Steerable Tag, ZF Auto Traction Control
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#5

First, this is the BEST post I have ever read when asking for help. You certainly grasped the arm chair problem solvers are no better than the info provided.

Let’s start with the Echo charger. You are absolutely correct. It is wired incorrectly and will not work as wired. It is a simple fix though. Remove the SO orange wire from the lug where all the chassis batteries are connected. Connect it to the Merge relay on the house battery side. Conveniently, there is already an orange wire on the merge relay. I think that will fix your charging issue.

My photos will not do you any good. My setup is different and I have changed some of the wiring to accommodate the lithium setup.

The foreign switch is connected to a device that changes how the tow car plug is wired. Foreign is a four wire plug with separate turn signal and brake lights. Domestic is the old three wire setup with turn signal and running lights using the same bulb in the tow car.

I believe, but may be wrong, that those wires were connected to a shunt for measuring amperage in or out of chassis batteries, and to measure chassis battery voltage. The old Xantrex control panel allowed you to see the amperage and voltage on Battery Bank 2. If the inverter and control panel were replaced, that function may have been disabled. Remove the panel where the inverter control panel is located and look for those four wires.

Again, this is a guess cause Newell did it as many ways as you can imagine. Two switches on the house batteries allows you to turn off power to the inverter, and turn off power to the rest of the systems on the coach that use 12V such as Aquahot controls, lighting, and AC thermostats.

The two thin wires to the chassis batteries may provide the voltage read to the inverter panel.

Here is my recommendation after you get the Echo wired correctly. Turn off all the batteries, disconnect the positive wires at all locations you can find, and use your Ohm meter to identify where and what each of the red cables is attached to.

Why? First Newell had some interesting logic in how they wired the 12V systems. You need to have a schematic. Don’t bother asking them for one. Second, you do NOT know who has had their hands in the wiring and what they may or may not have done. If you are going to keep the coach, take the time to make a map of the 12V system.

I did, and I was surprised at what I learned. It was very different than what I imagined.

Richard and Rhonda Entrekin
99 Newell, 512
Maverick Hybrid Toad
Inverness, FL (when we're home Cool )
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#6

Thank you very much, Richard, for taking the time to read my issue and write answers for me and for your compliment!

Here is my preliminary update:

I started tracing wires today and made corrections to Xentrex Echo Charge the wire, just like you described.
However, Echo Charge still BLINKs green, and the chassis battery still doesn't get charged.
The test is done with the chassis battery measured at 12.8v, and the house battery at 14V (charging). The two Disconnect Switches are both ON (INVERTER and CHASSIS BATTERY).

So I decided to remove the Xentrex Echo Charge off from the coach and test it on a standard-alone adjustable DC power supplier and a single used car battery, which is measured 12.4V. Echo Charger blinks green when its input is initially set at 13.0V, no output, thus not charging.
Then I started to turn the knob on the DC power supply to increase the voltage. Not until the Echo Charge input voltage reaches 16.8V it start producing output, and LED turns from BLINKING to SOLID.
The voltage reading across the 12V car battery is now increasing, indicating charging is in progress.

Then I start the counter-turn the knob to reduce the voltage on the Echo Charge input side. It starts to BLINK green when its input is below 16.3V.

I looked at Echo Charger to see if there was anything burned or otherwise abnormal. Nothing appears wrong except it looks dusty and dirty.
So I used pressure air to clean it. Re-test, this time it seems the Echo Charge can produce an output when the input is 16.4V, seemingly a slight improvement.

I decided to give it a thorough cleaning. I opened the Echo Charge enclosure, whipped it with alcohol, blew it to dry, and re-test. The result is almost the same as the first test, no improvement. So the dust wasn't the issue.

I am now waiting for a new Echo Charge and will provide a further update next few days.
Thanks, Richard, and all who spent time and shared your insights and knowledge.

Joe Zhao @ Greenville TX 75402
2004 Newell Coach 701, 45-8, 4 Slides, Front Entry
Detroit Diesel 60 w/DDEC, Allison 6-Speed AT, ZF Suspension w/Steerable Tag, ZF Auto Traction Control
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#7

Great troubleshooting on the Echo Charger.

Richard and Rhonda Entrekin
99 Newell, 512
Maverick Hybrid Toad
Inverness, FL (when we're home Cool )
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#8

As usual this forum confirmed my suspicions and shortened my tracing to less than 30 minutes total to include removing the cover on my xantrex to see what might have gone wrong. Light was blinking Green, I had 2 good 30A  fuses, house battery voltage at the large red wire and chassis battery voltage to the stripped red wire. I removed the stripped wire coming from the Xantrex and had no voltage = bad Xantrex. Heading out to the Newell  Rally in Tennessee this week so Amazon is delivering a new Xantrex 2 day Prime for $157. Hopefully no more discharged chassis battery (I haven’t done a load test yet)

I am considering some kind of cover for the Xantrex due to the water damage, will post pictures. My Xantrex is inside the engine compartment electrical box so not sure where he moisture came from.        

2005 Mid Entry 600hp Newell
Piper Jetprop 560 HP
Aviat Husky Taildragger
2019 Porsche 911 Turbo S Exclusive
Delorean Turbo Special
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#9

i took mine out and put a amp l charge unit on and it is much better. that said, they seem to be out of business now....ughh

tom

2002 45'8" Newell Coach 608  Series 60 DDEC4/Allison World 6 Speed HD4000MH

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#10

Just addressing a single issue in this thread, wire tracing. We probably all own multimeters with the continuity test, but when we're dealing with 40'+ it's not necessarily the easiest way to test. I recently had an issue at my house where one of my electrical circuits was only partially working. I attempted to purchase a Klein Tools ET450 which includes a wiring tracer that works with energized circuits. They're a victim of our supply chain problems and won't be available until sometime this November. I already owned a Cen-Tech cable tracker 94181 that I bought years ago when I wired my house for low voltage network/phone/speakers. It won't work with energized circuits, but once I turned off the circuit breaker, I was able to trace the problem to a bad outlet in my attic from inside the house through the drywall. I couldn't find the exact unit on Amazon, but a search for Cen-Tech cable tracker 94181 returns results that look almost identical for under $30. Automotive Car Repair Diagnostic Tool Cable Circuit Wire Tracker Tracers Analyzer Short Open Finder Tester Checker Device Detector Probe DC 6-42V.

To me, this would be an invaluable tool when tracing wires where previous owners possibly changed wire colors. In this thread, just validating that the wiring is what you think it is.

Jon & Chris Everton
1986 40' Dog House #86
450 hp ISM 5 spd ZF Ecomat 2
2004 Range Rover L322 Toad
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