[sunsetrv]

2002 45 3 slide Coach # 628
I have sent my box into HWH 2 times. 1st HWH send in was to have a complete inspection and rebuild what was necessary due to multiple faults and preventative maintenance. Installed box from returning from HWH I went from everything working except living room floor and living room slide would come out and not come back in. No power or light on for living room board. Out goes the entire box again because just removing the board is not enough. Spend more money and reinstalled box and now living room slide is completely non op light still does not come on and now drivers bed slide is non op as well. Back on the horn with HWH and they indicated that Newell changes some of the components in the box from there preset control board settings. I have heard of a strawberry that could delete all the old control boards and would solve my problems. Could someone lead me in that direction please.

[Richard]

Ok, breathe deeply.

I am sorry that HWH and Newell are pointing the finger at each other.

Your best bet is to make an appointment and take the coach to HWH in Moscow IA. The in person experience is far better than their remote interaction.

Was everything working BEFORE you sent the boards to the HWH the first time?

When you say the lights will not come on, do you mean the yellow lights at the room keypad?

Have you checked the ground wire, I think it is 6900 or 7900, that is connected to the parking brake pressure switch. HWH requires that wire to make to ground or NOTHING will happen. The purpose is to prevent accidental room deployment unless parked.

We are happy to help you with our limited knowledge, but it will require small steps to narrow the problem. Some folks don’t have the patience to deal with that.

There has been some discussion about replacing the HWH control system with a custom programmed Rasberry Pi computer. It is discussion right now, NOT an available solution.

Where are you located?

[Jack Houpe]

Welcome sunsetrv, do you have a name brother? I understand your frustration been there done that. Removing and reinstalling the control unit is a pretty tuff job and requires some skillset so make sure all plugs are in the correct place. Richard hit a good point about the parking brake lockout.

[sunsetrv]

ANSWERS IN ITALICS ALL CAPS (NOT YELLING)

Was everything working BEFORE you sent the boards to the HWH the first time?

THE TWO REAR SLIDEOUTS WORKED FINE WITH THE REAR PASSENGER FLOOR TRYING TO COME UP.
[i]AFTER REPAIRING THE FLOOR UP HYDRAULIC RAM GUSSET WHICH HAD BROKEN OFF, THE REAR FLOOR WORKED AS IT SHOULD. (THE SLIDE LOCKS FOR THE PASSENGER ROOM WERE NOT WORKING BEFOREHAND).
THE FRONT SLIDEOUT WOULD EXTEND AND RETRACT BUT THE FLOOR WOULD NOT MOVE AT ALL WHEN THE SLIDEOUT WAS EXTENDED. WE BYPASSED THE SENSOR SWITCH UNDER THE FLOOR WHILE THE SLIDE WAS COMPLETELY OUT. THE SOLENOID OPENED BUT THE FLOOR DID NOT COME UP.  WE REPLACED 2 SUSPECTED MANIFOLD SOLENOIDS WITH NO CHANGE. TURNS OUT NOW WE HAVE 2 SPARES.
THE REAR SLIDES WORKED AT FIRST AS THEY SHOULD (STILL NO SLIDE LOCK ON PASSSENGER SLIDE). THE FRONT SLIDE WOULD ONLY EXTEND, BUT NOT RETRACT. WHEN I STOPPED THE SLIDEOUT MID SLIDE, I TRIED TO RETRACT, IT JUST PUSHED IT OUT FURTHER. THE ONLY WAY TO GET THE SLIDE TO COME BACK IN IS TO ACTIVATE THE RETRACT SOLENOID AND PUMP FROM THE HYDRAULIC MANIFOLD BAY USING A 12V POWER SOURCE FOR THE SOLENOID AND THE COACH BATTERY FOR THE PUMP.

[/i]When you say the lights will not come on, do you mean the yellow lights at the room keypad?

WE SENT THE BOARD BACK TO HWH FOR THE SECOND TIME AS THERE WAS ONLY 1 LED LIGHT LIT ON THE CONTROL BOARD. PREVIOUSLY, WE HAD 5 LIGHTS ON. WHEN WE RECEIVED THE CONTROL BOARD BACK FROM HWH, WE HAD 4 LED LIGHTS ON. 1 LED LIGHT IS STILL NOT ON. THE ROOM KEYPAD LIGHTS ARE ALL FUNCTIONING AS INTENDED.
 

Have you checked the ground wire, I think it is 6900 or 7900, that is connected to the parking brake pressure switch. HWH requires that wire to make to ground or NOTHING will happen. The purpose is to prevent accidental room deployment unless parked.

WE HAVE CHECKED THE GROUNDS AND THEY ARE AS THEY SHOULD BE.

We are happy to help you with our limited knowledge, but it will require small steps to narrow the problem. Some folks don’t have the patience to deal with that.

WE HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET THIS FIXED NOW FOR MANY MONTHS. WE JUST NEED PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO HAVE MUCH MORE EXPERIENCE AT DIAGNOSIS. WE ARE LEARNING MUCH PATIENCE, HAVING TRIALS THAT PRODUCE SUCH. HAPPY TO ANSWER MORE QUESTIONS REGARDING DIAGNOSIS. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ASK.


There has been some discussion about replacing the HWH control system with a custom programmed Rasberry Pi computer. It is discussion right now, NOT an available solution.

THE RASPBERRY PI SOLUTION IS MOST LIKELY THE ANSWER, SINCE THIS ANTIQUE TECHNOLOGY IS 25+ YEARS OLD. MICROSOFT IS LAYING OFF 60,000 EMPLOYES BEGINNING THE END OF THIS MONTH, SO THE SMART GUYS TO FIGURE THIS OUT ARE OUT THERE. I UNDERSTAND THE TECHNOLOGY AND THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PROGRAMMING AND ACTIVATING THE CONTROLS BUT I HAVE NO SCHEMATIC TO WORK FROM. A FRESH SOLUTION USING PYTHON PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE IS MOST LIKELY IN ORDER.

Where are you located?

WE ARE LOCATED IN FOREST GROVE, OREGON

MY NAME IS KEITH I AM THE TECH WORKING ON THIS

[Richard]

I can only imagine how frustrating this is.

Let me dig around in my email files. I sent Jack a logic flow of what happens in the sequence. That logic flow may help you.

Ok, from your comments, we can deduce. The units have power, the key switches are working and have power, the pump comes on and has power.

Is it safe to assume that the coach has a box with a plexi cover that shows indicator lights? Do you have any documents that show you what those lights indicate? That is where I would start. I would also focus on ONE slideout at a time, otherwise it becomes too convoluted.

I have to ask a really stupid question. Has the fluid level been confirmed in the reservoir? Has anyone confirmed what the output pressure of the hyd pump might be?

What I don't know is if the slideouts were malfunctioning when you first touched the coach? Or they were functioning correctly and then failed. I comment because IF someone touched it before you, we DO NOT know what another person may have done, modified, or most likely connected in the wrong way. Having pulled those boxes in the tight place and fretting about connections, I can appreciate how easily a mis connection can happen. It is worse because the connectors allow this. Do you have any thoughts or insight?

Does the silver cover on the control box have a schematic pasted upon the inside?

Please don't take any questions in the wrong way. The armchair mechanics don't have the coach to view or the history to rely upon.

Jesse White recently had a front tire blowout which wreaked havoc on the HWH wiring. He had to manually (hotwire) the different solenoids to get the rooms to activate. Let's see if we can't recruit him.

[sunsetrv]

I can only imagine how frustrating this is.

Let me dig around in my email files. I sent Jack a logic flow of what happens in the sequence. That logic flow may help you.

Ok, from your comments, we can deduce. The units have power, the key switches are working and have power, the pump comes on and has power.

Is it safe to assume that the coach has a box with a plexi cover that shows indicator lights? Do you have any documents that show you what those lights indicate? That is where I would start. I would also focus on ONE slideout at a time, otherwise it becomes too convoluted.

I have to ask a really stupid question. Has the fluid level been confirmed in the reservoir? Has anyone confirmed what the output pressure of the hyd pump might be?

What I don't know is if the slideouts were malfunctioning when you first touched the coach? Or they were functioning correctly and then failed. I comment because IF someone touched it before you, we DO NOT know what another person may have done, modified, or most likely connected in the wrong way. Having pulled those boxes in the tight place and fretting about connections, I can appreciate how easily a mis connection can happen. It is worse because the connectors allow this. Do you have any thoughts or insight?

Does the silver cover on the control box have a schematic pasted upon the inside?

Please don't take any questions in the wrong way. The armchair mechanics don't have the coach to view or the history to rely upon.

Jesse White recently had a front tire blowout which wreaked havoc on the HWH wiring. He had to manually (hotwire) the different solenoids to get the rooms to activate. Let's see if we can't recruit him.

Hi Richard,

Thank you for your response. I do not know what anyone else may have done to it, since it appears all the solenoids are original.

No documentation to refer to regarding lights identification in a plexi cover.

Fluid level on hydraulics reservoir is fine. Pump pressure must be OK since the slides that do work have no problems.

To my knowledge, the only thing not working was the front floor under the dinette and couch would not come up when the slide reached the full-out position. Additionally, the rear floor would not come up. However, that was repaired by complete disassembly, repair and re-assembly of the rear floor mechanism, including rebuilding the carriage system. (The hydraulic ram attachment gusset to the frame rail was literally broken off. I cut the old gusset off, strengthened the frame rail attachment, fashioned a new, more sturdy gusset and welded it to the frame rail. The rear slide floor up/down worked properly when it was put back together.) 

This rear slide worked fine until we sent the board back to HWH for the second time because of the new issue involving the front slide (slide #1) continuing to EXTEND when we pushed RETRACT.

The slide #1 floor still does not come up even though I manually closed the floor-up sensor circuit when the slide reached the full out position. Like Jesse, the hot-wire master, I hot-wired the floor-up solenoid and engaged the pump from the hydraulics service bay to no avail. As I write this, it occurs to me the floor-up solenoid may be bad. (I thought I had already tested it.) Luckily, I now have 2 working spares, since I replaced 2 other solenoids thinking they may be the issue. Tomorrow, I will try replacing the floor-up solenoid and get back to you. That may be the end of the floor-up issue.
I may still have the non- RETRACT issue. This I believe, is a board malfunction.

When I refer to the lights being on or off, I am referring to the red LED indicator lights showing power to the electronics board in the hydraulics bay. There should be 5 red LEDs lit when the slides are ready to be in service (Key on, brakes set, panel keys on, yellow light on = LED light on). When we sent the board to HWH the 2nd time there was only one red LED light, of 5 lights, lit on the electronics board. When the board was returned only 4 of 5 lights on. (Almost!) The LED of the circuit panel for the non-retracting slide (Slide #1 with the non-working floor up) is not lit at all.

Inside the electronics box there are 3 circuit boards and 3 control panel boards for the slides. 

In answer to your question about the schematics written on the inside panel, YES, but it is very limited. I used it to diagnose and replace several blown fuses before we sent the board back to HWH

Regarding connections being in the correct location, I painstakingly identified and labeled each connector by assigning a different color for slide 1, slide 2, slide 3, … etc, and labeled the function of each connection within the color. (6-8 functions per slide, 4 for the generator.) I used the tiny print original numbers on the wires attached to each connector to insure I had the correct wire to each connector. When I reconnected the wires, I verified the connections.

Still stumped. I imagine if I do get the slide#1 floor-up working, I may still have the non-RETRACT issue. 

Once again thanks for your expertise and your input. "In the multitude of counselors there is safety" (a good solution). 

Keith

[Richard]

This rear slide worked fine until we sent the board back to HWH for the second time because of the new issue involving the front slide (slide #1) continuing to EXTEND when we pushed RETRACT. This is a clue. The HWH hydraulics are a bit unusual, since on the extend function BOTH the extend and retract solenoids are open. The retraction depends upon the difference in surface area of the piston in the ram. Also, there is a unusual check valve in the live end of the cylinder that will not allow the cylinder to extend UNLESS there is pressure upon it from the retract solenoid. My point is the extend and retract solenoids could be reversed which would explain this IF the board was functioning properly.

On the non retract issue, does the pump "grunt" when you push the retract button like it is applying pressure? Does the room move even a fraction of an inch? Are the slide lock pins retracting first? Or where they never extended with room out?

Thanks for confirming pump pressure and fluid level.



Good job on ID on the wires, I used colored zip ties and doubled and tripled some of them to have enough unique indicators. But we don't know WHO may have touched it in the past. I always leave this door open cause we just don't know.

Hmmm, on the floor not coming up, are the lock pins engaged or disengaged?

I couldn't find my essay to Jack, so here is my memory. And the chips are mighty corroded.

Slide out operation.
Key on.
30ish second delay to pull slide seal flat
lock pins retract
lock pin retracted signal to brain
both extend and retract solenoids open
room moves outward until limit switch in center of basement floor makes telling brain to close solenoids

This is where I am fuzzy, pin down solenoid activates, pins go down, pin down signal sent to brain

floor solenoid up is activated
floor up switch is made
Floor solenoid deactivates

I am fuzzy on the pins because HWH used different methods over the years to tell the brain where the pins and rooms where. You MAY Have magnets on the roof of the slide out and prox switches instead of mechanical triggers on room position. If those magnets are missing or have moved, it could cause problems. The most common problem with that is the pins add ventilation holes to the slide out roof.

[Richard]

Hmmmmm, had a few more thoughts tonite.

One, a well known guru, once worked on his HWH system, only to have it malfunction after a supposedly simple procedure. Turns out, if you leave the solenoid manually open the system doesn't work very well. It's worth verifying.

I was thinking what would I do if I were facing the situation you are. It seems you already have all the inputs and outputs identified and labeled. I would start at the beginning and while someone pressed the extend switch, I would measure the voltage at the connector for the pin retract solenoid, if I had voltage and the pins didn't retract, I would crack the fitting at the manifold to see if I had flow. It's slow but I would continue this process of manually checking for switch continuity, solenoid signal, and hydraulic flow through every step of the process. This would confirm that inputs and outputs were correctly connected and that solenoids were functioning. It would also pinpoint exactly what the HWH brain wasn't doing. AND it would set you up to provide and I/O logic to person programming either an industrial 12V Arduino, Rasberry Pi, or 12V PLC.

There has to be a niche market to replace all the older HWH stuff. They aren't supporting it, and thousands of motorhomes are using it.

By the way, glad you joined us. You are our kind of dude.

[Jack Houpe]

This is a complicated thread and Richard is the on the money with his knowledge of the system. I will be standing by with popcorn as we don't need to many cooks in the kitchen.

I like 12v PLC idea as I'm an analog type of guy.

[sunsetrv]

Richard and Jack,

Thank you for your help with this issue. Let me begin with your comments in italics:
The HWH hydraulics are a bit unusual, since on the extend function BOTH the extend and retract solenoids are open.
This news to me. It would seem that only one solenoid is to be open at one time depending on the direction of travel for the slide. Am I correct to assume the solenoids are all the same in their ability to allow pressure from the manifold to the piston. Is there a possible flow adjustment necessary through the solenoid (having greater flow-through by adjusting the needle valve) for this pressure differential to happen?

unusual check valve in the live end of the cylinder
You say this affects the EXTEND portion of the control. I have no problem with the slide extending. I believe this check valve is functional (unless it is somehow jammed open and will not close for the RETRACT command).

 the extend and retract solenoids could be reversed
I will try to reverse the connectors to see if this may be the issue

...does the pump "grunt" when you push the retract button like it is applying pressure?
YES. The pump is fully operational when I press the switch. When I activate the RETRACT solenoid manually from the bay through the external 12V source (jump battery with a custom-made connector attached), immediately the slide begins to retract about 4-5 inches just from the residual pressure in the manifold without pump activation. When I engage the pump through the pump solenoid, I can get it to RETRACT the rest of the way.

...on the floor not coming up, are the lock pins engaged or disengaged?
For the rear slide, the lock pins do not engage when the floor comes up. It would seem the lock pins should not engage until the floor is up. I know the sensors are good, but the locks do not engage. Don't know why...
On this coach, the lock pins are engaged by means of proximity sensors. When the sensors are triggered, the lock pins should engage. The front slide did experience the top lock pins creating new ventilation for the slide (It has been repaired already), due to my error of connecting the rear slide sensors to the front slide controls.
Additionally, the floor up controls are activated by means of proximity sensors. This has been verified by Newell and me in ceiling of the bay. When the slide was completely out, I activated the floor-up sensor circuit by jump wire, and manually opened the floor-up solenoid in the bay. The the floor still did not come up. 

I sent Jack a logic flow of what happens in the sequence. That logic flow may help you.
Slide out operation:

• Key on.
  
• 30ish second delay to pull slide seal flat
  
• lock pins retract... lock pin retracted signal to brain
  
• both extend and retract solenoids open
  
• room moves outward until limit switch in center of basement floor makes telling brain to close solenoids
  

This is where I am fuzzy... 

• pin down solenoid activates, pins go down, pin down signal sent to brain
  
• floor solenoid up is activated
  
• floor up switch is made
  
• Floor solenoid deactivates
  

Thank you for the logic flow.  I put in bold the step that makes the most sense to me. 
There are two normally open (NO) limit switches under the slide portion of the floor. One engages the start of floor operation, the other engages the stop of floor operation. It may be the one to engage the stop floor up sequence is either stuck in the closed position or chewed through and short circuited. Accessing this switch requires complete removal of everything on the slide... OH boy! Just what I did not want to do!

I now have my work cut out for me in working through these possible solutions. By the way, if you are the least bit religious, pray that I do not use my non-church words as I try these solutions. 
Thank you for your help.

Keith